v1.13 Main Talk thread

[Nitrat]

The first >>>thread<<< is closed of to much Off Topic or nonsense postings.
Please take care to handle it friendly for us all, i will try it too

greets

[Flashy]

OK let's pin it.....

[Realist]

Kaiden,

I have some technical requests on 1.13.
I'd like to see the program supporting .mp3 soundfiles in addition to those big old waves. In my opinion this would help both distribute new mods and - although hard disks are getting bigger and bigger - save disk space in order to maybe have more than one installation at once, i.e. a single one for every mod.

I think it was mentioned before at the Bear's Pit, but what about a possibility in the ja2.ini file in order to configure what data-directory should be used. I think of not having a separate installation for every mod but a separate data-folder. There should still be a default data-dir, which mods would share, but they can have their own directory and overwrite the default-files. This would make mods easier to organize, wouldn't it?

And a last thing. In Bear's Pit there was the idea of increasing the resolution - at least in tactical screen. When it comes to graphical changes, would it be possible to get rid of those limitation to a 256 color palette some .stis have to use? Maybe it's also possible to use not .stis any more but bitmaps or .jpgs instead?

[Kaiden]

Kaiden,

I have some technical requests on 1.13.
I'd like to see the program supporting .mp3 soundfiles in addition to those big old waves. In my opinion this would help both distribute new mods and - although hard disks are getting bigger and bigger - save disk space in order to maybe have more than one installation at once, i.e. a single one for every mod.

I think it was mentioned before at the Bear's Pit, but what about a possibility in the ja2.ini file in order to configure what data-directory should be used. I think of not having a separate installation for every mod but a separate data-folder. There should still be a default data-dir, which mods would share, but they can have their own directory and overwrite the default-files. This would make mods easier to organize, wouldn't it?

And a last thing. In Bear's Pit there was the idea of increasing the resolution - at least in tactical screen. When it comes to graphical changes, would it be possible to get rid of those limitation to a 256 color palette some .stis have to use? Maybe it's also possible to use not .stis any more but bitmaps or .jpgs instead?

I am already working on Multiple data folders, it will probably not be ready for this next release, but possibly the release after.

Also I know very little about graphics programming, so adding support for JPG's and BMPs is not something I would be able to do easily. But I would definitely like for it to happen.

[Spectre]

Maby you dont need several installations to run all the mods. The master installation with all the data plus a spawn-folder for every mod, containing only the additional data - like an "override" folder.
You start the JA2 exe in the "mymod" folder - so "mymod" is it. The game will search for data in "mymod" folder/subfolders first. The rest comes from the same master installation for every mod.

How about it?

[Realist]

@Spectre
That's exactly what I meant by my second point.

@Kaiden
I don't know much about graphics programming neither, so I thought you might do, since you're the professional. Maybe Mugsy or Snap can help.
Anyway, it doesn't matter too much, it's just a nice-to-have but not very necessary. Same about mp3 support.

Another thing I would be happy about but which actually isn't important at all, is to have a VC8 version of the code as defrog offered at BP. In my opinion it's more fun to work with it and since the beta of the express edition is free some more people might feel motivated to approach to the sourcecode. Last but not least defrog says it had a better debugger which also wouldn't cause any additional damage.

[Kaiden]

Currently the code compiles in VC6 and VC.Net. I'm actually the only one I know of that still uses the VC6 project for compiling and coding. But only because I lost my .Net in the last move. I don't think it would be too difficult to get it compiling in .Net, but I am sure any one interested in making code changes in VC8 should be able to get it to compile in VC8, I just worry that VC6 might no longer be able to compile the code.

Also, I beleive Snap is going to take over the externalized data folder locations so it might just be out in the upcoming release.

"- like an "override" folder." This is exactly what it will be like.

[KillerFaultier]

ah super, endlich gehts mal zur sache!

hört sich schonmal alles sehr vielversprechend an. aber warum posten hier alle nur noch in englisch?

gut, für Kaiden und alle coder dürfte das sicherlich am praktischsten sein.
ich gehe jetzt mal davon aus, daß damit meine übersetzerdienste überflüssig geworden sind.

@ Kaiden: since you are now registered here (welcome again) an everybody writes english to you, i suppose my translation skills are not needed any more. if you would take the job of posting the most important things from here regarding the 1.13 Project in the Bears Pit forum, it would not be necessary for me to register there too.

for any german texts you dont understand or want to post into the Bears Pit, i would offer you my help in translation if necessary and wanted.

BTW, what would you think of the idea of an international Ja2 1.13 with true multilingual support for english, german and maybe russian too, that can be switched within the game or by an external program?
with those externalised "ovverride folder" structure it should also be possible to incorporate somehow multilanguage support, if only for the text and subtitle as well as interface files, now shouldn´t it?

with this feature included, a 1.12 US GOLD/1.13 version should be able to support all mods in all languages, making an end with the different localized versions chaos and offering only one unified platform for all international modders and developers. (this idea is my brainchild and i hold it quite dear if you know what i mean. )

i know this is quite a task and not easy to accomplish, but i believe in the great possibilities this would offer to everybody! but im not a coder and neither (yet) a modder, maybe this ist too high flying.

so what do you think of it, seriously?

[Spectre]

@Spectre
That's exactly what I meant by my second point.

Cool
Maybe a launcher would be nice - the JA2.exe in the main directory. Searches subdirs for JA2 exes, so you don't have to install mods (create shortcut). Unzip would do.

@Kaiden
I don't know much about graphics programming neither, so I thought you might do, since you're the professional. Maybe Mugsy or Snap can help.

I would aks Toxic.

[Kaiden]

Cool
Maybe a launcher would be nice - the JA2.exe in the main directory. Searches subdirs for JA2 exes, so you don't have to install mods (create shortcut). Unzip would do.

Mods should become nothing more than subdirectories to Ja2 in addition to the original Data folder. So Installing them will be nothing more than unzipping the folder into your Ja2 installed directory. We will really have no controll over whether or not the modders will choose to provide any kind of Installer. Now a "Mod Launcher" would be nice, however it is simply a change to the INI file to switch between Mods so it is really unneccessary.

Now an Installer for 1.13 updates and patches is on the list so that there will be less to download, a patch "Installer" will contain previous patches up to a specific size, and then will require a new "Installer" for future patches. Also included will be a "Main Installer" which will install or update everything to the latest version. But it is further down the list as there are a lot of bugs and more important features to add to the game first.

I would aks Toxic.

Toxic is busy at the moment with the XML Editor, but may be of some help later where graphics are concerned. I don't mind learning how to do it, I would just need some help.

so what do you think of it, seriously?

Internationalization is always a good thing, but the best you can probably hope for in the near future would be a language option on the Installer that copies translated files and a different EXE based on language chosen. We don't even have two full languages supported yet :p

I am however trying to "recruit" from tbsgames.net someone willing to translate a chinese version. And if anyone knows of someone willing to work with a russian version, by all means send them my way. The problem with russian and chinese however, is that I can't read it. I have to rely on a translator to garble everything and make no sense out of it some times, which is why I have not posted on any Russian sites, I can't find a suitable translator. German I can at least read somewhat so it's much easier, I translate the words I don't understand, and the rest makes sense to me.

In other news, I will be posting a "To Do" list in 3 places once we've added some of the German Wishlist items to it. The 3 places are here, Bear's Pit, and on the v113 page. This will happen in the next few weeks, and the list will be in no particular order.

[smilingassassin]

@Realist

many graphic files in ja2 are multipages or animations

i doubt that bitmaps or jpegs are handy for that purpose. but increasing the number of colours in the .sti palettes would already do a lot of good to graphics modding

[Lord_V]

@Realist

many graphic files in ja2 are multipages or animations

i doubt that bitmaps or jpegs are handy for that purpose. but increasing the number of colours in the .sti palettes would already do a lot of good to graphics modding

btw, speaking as a noob, what about .gif-files. Afaik they can change ...

[Realist]

@smilingassassin
You're right, didn't thought of this aspect. You see I'm not a great modder.

@Lord_V
Well, afaik GIF's are restricted to 256 colors as well, so no solution for the limited palette.
<edit> But I must also admit that I don't know how which sti works. As I said before I don't have much experience here. </edit>

@KillerFaultier

aber warum posten hier alle nur noch in englisch?

Since most of us are more or less able to write in English, I think it's only fair to do so, so that Kaiden hasn't to struggle with some google-translations for parts he doesn't understand.

[smilingassassin]

i agree that .gif is certainly an option in this respect

however maybe there are working solutions using other formats as well, i don`t know

up to the programmers. realist certainly had a concept behind his statement for .jpeg/ bmp.

[Spectre]

i agree that .gif is certainly an option in this respect

Yea, but then you can't get rid of the 256 color limitation.
There is afaik no common compressed multilayer format for 32 bit color depth.

PS: Maby PNG/MNG format (up to 48 bit). The successor of GIF. But while PNG cant handle multilayer, MNG is stil rather exotic.

[Realist]

Kaiden,

are you trying to keep the built-in editor?

And another suggestion:
You split up the item flag variable that was in the original code and turned it into several boolean variables. The same with the new item properties that you've added to the existing ones. I think you did that because of the XML file which can be modified much more easily if every flag has its own variable.

I have to say I don't really like that. It makes the XML file much bigger and think of the possibility to have up to 5000 items... And btw, it'll also a huge waste of memory if you have a whole byte for only a boolean value. Again, think of having 5000 items...

Now, with Toxic's editor you can keep the old way of storing flags, meaning you can put more than one into a single variable and then let the editor do all the work of calculating the correct value. This would save resources and with the editor it wouldn't be more difficult to edit item flags.

The negative aspect would be you'd have to do many changes to the code again.

What do think about that?

[Kaiden]

@Realist -

You mean the Beta Editor? If so, yes I will be recompiling the Beta Editor and adding support for the 1.13 XML's, the new Prof.bin, and Snaps extended tileset support.

Snap and Mugsy have been doing the XML code, if they've replaced bitmasks with individual flags it's probably because it's a hell of a lot easier to code that way. I'll find out for sure though. I agree that it's a much more efficient way of doing things, but when there are only 3 people working in the code, it comes down to whatever is more efficient timewise as opposed to bitwise.

I doubt we'll see too many people even come close to the max 5000 items. Right now, I beleive in the extended items, set of XML's there are roughly about 700-800 items total. And I don't think a few KB is going to bring down any modern computer.

[Kaiden]

Possible future additions (List subject to change constantly, items will be added, modified and even removed)

The items on this list are in no particular order, I've taken the first 15 from the bottom of the Main 1.13 thread (Not sure what all 15 of them mean).


1. "sci-fi" items flag

2. more new weapons and items

3. externalization of explosion types

4. Get the enemies to actually use attached GLs properly

5. 7.62x54r ammo

6. low- to mid-power rifles

7. more attachments

8. more armour

9. sniper enhancement of some sort

10. better inventory management

11. vehicle inventories

12. ambient sound effects

13. editor exe (if possible) (Kaiden: New Beta Editor with 1.13 feature support and bugfixes)

14. higher resolutions

15. new animations (Kaiden: Currently on the list are prone/crouching LAW/Grenade and possibly Knife throwing animations)

16. More improvements to enemy AI and possible modifications to current AI.

17. New Profedit with support for 1.13 features, and In-game support for decrypted and restructured Prof.dat files.

18. More externalized INI values and options for better adjusting difficulty level.
- Restricting IMP character generation to Day 1.
- Restricting the number of IMP characters based on Difficulty.
- Setting to make ALL mines shut down randomly during the game.
- Setting to stop AIM Mercenary deaths.
- Setting to Open the MERC site up on Day 1.
- Setting to go with the above to make the advanced MERC Mercs available from Day 1.
- Externalized MINE Income modifiers per difficulty Level.

19. "Data" Folder location setting in the INI file for multiple "Data" Folders.

20. Improved "NPC" and "Quest" support for Modders (Externalized options for NPC locations and Quest data).

21. Ability to add new Merc's to M.E.R.C. (And possibly add new RPC's) without replacing existing ones.

22. New Improvements to Militia to make them better at handling the Enemy. (Currently have not decided on what Improvements to add, but MANY have been suggested).

23. Bug Fixes. Currently at last count, there were around 15 outstanding bugs in the game. Unfortunately, the latest Version has made the 6 or 7 reproduceable savegames obsolete. I will continue trying to fix the bugs in the 9-23-05 version until I can get new savegames with reproduceable bugs sent to me by the current playerbase.

24. Balance Tweaks - This of course will happen from time to time, but the major balance fixes will not occur for the "official" release until most of the balance effecting features have been added. Also most balance issues reported mostly deal with things that can be changed in the XML files.

25. XML Editor - Currently in progress, will make it easier for the less technical players to modify the XML files, as well as making it easier for the modders to make the massive amounts of changes to these files with fewer mistakes.

26. Molitov Cocktails (Need graphics currently possible in the XML files). Chainsaw and Hedge Trimmer. (So I'm a nostalgic DG player) I tried to convince Ian to let the DG source slip out years ago, but that never amounted to much (unless the end result was Wildfire and the JA2 source

27. Allowing the training of Militia up to Veteran status (with the probable requirement of 100 Leadership and Teaching and possibly even Expert Teaching).

28. New levels of Enemies and Militia.

29. New Vehicles and/or Modified old ones.

30. "Backpack" Interface to carry more items as opposed to the current XML option of making "Pocketed" items that hold attachments.

31. Ability to merge two items, and not only create a new item but retain one or both of the original items.

32. Fixing Civ/Militia/Enemy AI regarding landmines so the the Militia and Civilians stay away from the blast radius in friendly sectors, this will make them very useful for town defenses. Where as now, they are useless except for a handful of cheats when you flag them.

33. Move to a 100pt system for AP's so that different AP costs can be more diversified.

34. Move to a 100pt Item coolness factor (currently set at 1-10).

35. Advanced Character advancement system (optional setting in INI file) more RPG like progression. Higher levels, Higher stats and skills, More professions per character, slower advancement, etc...

36. INI Option (OR Main Screen option) for IronMan Mode and Timed Turns.

37. Using Existing unused variables in Prof.dat such as Nationality and the Theif attribute. As well as possibly adding new ones.

38. INI Setting to stop the Cutscenes from playing in the game.

39. Electric Fences Ala UB.

40. More Weapon/Item "stats" and options.

41. Enhanced Inventory control - SELL ALL IN SECTOR Hotkey, Drop All Items in Sector Hotkey, Merge all mergeable items Hotkey, etc...

42. Ability to use Ranged weapons as Melee Weapons (example Bayonet, or Pistol Whiping) Via Attachments and/or "B" key.

43. Bobby Ray ParaDrops to chosen Sector. Must have SAM control over Air Space, and if there is not a Merc in the sector, no Items will be delivered, or rather they will be stolen.

44. Externalized Option for AIM/MERC Payment options, Examples: One-time Fee, Normal 1day/1week/2week (possible addition of 1month fee).

45. Ability to have 24 Mercs instead of 18.

46. Enhanced Quest modding options. Including room for more Quest NPC's and custom fetch/kill/etc... type quests.

47. Installer for the patches and main initial installation of 1.13

48. Move some of the less-used game options into INI, to
be replaced by something more useful (already posted
this idea)

49. Apparently the mine to be infested in Sci-Fi mode
was supposed to be chosen at random among all
controlled mines. Instead, only two mines can be
infested. Will fix this.

50. Replace bitmasks in XMLs with multiple flags.

51. New item property: WearRate (with associated bonus).
Will control wear of guns and certain gun
attachments, as well as consumption rate for
expendable items like canteens.

52. New item property: ReliabilityBonus (can be a
penalty!)

53. Look at gun jamming.

54. LOS indicator: an option to show real field of view.

55. Look at randomised autofire (I have some funny ideas
for that).

56. Look at item generation frequency for AI.

57. Look at encumbrance penalties. More graduated
penalty? Armour and items carried in hands count for
more?

58. Raise weapon command.

59. Forced turn-based command

60. Unload all carried items into sector inventory
button.

61. Externalise critical hit constants.

62. Flash-bang grenades with blinding and deafening
effect.

63. Better implementation of binocular-type items.

64. Externalise faction bodytypes, clothes, etc.

65. Possibly add more bodytypes.

66. Externalize quest data, starting location and other plot related devices.

67. Externalize Strategic Event Handlers so that new "events" can be added.

68. Externalize "Alternate" sector locations so that every sector can have alternative maps which can be triggered in multiple ways (If possible, if not, then they can be randomly chosen when the game starts).

69. Determine what "limits" are placed on sector sub-levels and remove those limits so that they can be used in creative ways (not neccessarily underground).

[Realist]

You mean the Beta Editor? If so, yes I will be recompiling the Beta Editor and adding support for the 1.13 XML's, the new Prof.bin, and Snaps extended tileset support.

Really nice news. Like to hear that.
I wasn't sure whether it was the Beta Editor or not, but I meant the one that you can include to the exe by defining the editor preprocessor directive in the code.

About the flags and the bitmasks, you're right when you say it's easier to code with individual flags, although I think that the other method wouldn't be too hard either. It's just I've been always told to save resources and not to waste them if not necessary.

Ah, impressive list. I'll fall down on my knees if you get all those things done.
As for #31, I just did something like that, in my case it was merging a t-shirt and a knife in order to get a number of stripes but keep the knife. If you're interested I could offer a little, little help there.

[Kaiden]

@Realist, yes it will help, but can't be hard coded, it has to be something configurable in the INI file. Also Knife, Shirts... Molitov Cocktail?

[Realist]

Yeah, Molotow Cocktail, wasn't hard to guess, was it?
Also did some tutorial here, but used hardcoded references since there wasn't the need of doing it more editable.

For merging items I think of an array of type of a struct that contains information about the two items, which item(s) you'll keep, what item and also the number of items you'll recieve. That array could get its own XML file like the other arrays in items.cpp.

[-=[MAD]=-]

hi Kaiden,

The list you presented is amazing! You did a great job
Are some of these points influenced by our german ideas?

And are you looking to create teams with 10 mercs like it is done in WF6 (ger)?

PS: Plz dont look too much at my terrible english

@all
kann mir bitte jemand punkt 57 erklären? ich nix verstehen

PPS: und einige dinge der liste kommen mir doch bekannt vor

greetz, -=[MAD]=-

[Kaiden]

@MAD, we will probably stick with 6 mercs per squad, but may increase the team size to 24 instead of 18.

Yes, some of the items were added/influenced from the wishlist that was posted here.

57. Die Waffen sind schwerer, wenn sie innen den Händen getragen werden.

[Schattenfell]

Ah, impressive list. I'll fall down on my knees if you get all those things done.

ditto
Unbelievable that so much changes are possible! Great work and good luck for the project.

[Lokadamus]

mmm...

Will there be a way to get random values like markmanship and other skills (nigth skill, psycho) for every Member from MERC/ all? you will never now, what you get, until you have paid for it ... but it must a little bit controlled by price ....

[Spectre]

I made a list of some details i've noticed while playing ...just my personal point of view:

* The UMP is an absolutely pointless weapon. There are plenty of Colt M4 and AKSU by the time this weapon dropps - both superior to the UMP. The lack of a silencer-option makes this weapon as good as obsolete.

* Imho the AK-103 comes in too soon. This is a damn serious weapon. I would consider it superior to most of the 5.56Nato guns. Penetration is vital in 1.13.

* Wight problems.
I can't say heavy stacks are a real problem. Even if two mortar shells wight like 100kg in the original stack - you can do something about it (restack). But there are also single items heavier than others. For example a lockpick kit with the wight of maby 10 lockpicks. If i remember this right, this is not an issue of 1.13. It has been there since 1.00.

* Money problems.
The problem is: too much money. But you can't really ballance this. Not as long as a full squad comes for 18 grand and not a buck more. On one hand you could lower payback from sold equipment and/or mines, but on the other hand this solution casts havoc and damnation uppon the "i love Magic and Trevor" faction.¨All in all i found it really nice to finally have the money to hire the real soldiers for a change. Dont know what to do... i really hate it to argue about something while i can't present at least something that looks like a solution.

* Item problems.
Similar to the last point - no clue what would make it work better. While it is just boring to sell all the armor and Nightvision goggles things like ceramic plates, LAWs and mortar shells come in quite handy. I wouldn't miss them anymore. Brings dynamic to the game when you can bombshell the hell out of your enemy.
There is more incomming than i can sell to the local dealers so i am forced to dump the stuff via ALT. Besides - moving all the weapons to Toni isn't really an option. Its a pain in the ass. There is also a crossover to the money problem - thank God you don't have to, since you drown in money (at least if you are not one of the "Trevor and Magic" faction).
Maby if you could donnate the stuff to the militia...

* Rooftop party.
Nice feature, having enemies on the roof now. But they seem to develop a strange, yet allmost pervert obsession with roofs.
I cleared Alma Prison with one soldier on the roof. Shoot one enemy, the next comes climbing. Similar scenario in some of the missile sites. One small roof, 10 soldiers up there. One mustardgas mortar grenade and hasta la vista baby to halve the sector force. You can even blindfire, they are allways up there.
Imho some reballancing would be cool.

* Strange behaviour of sniperz.
There is a sniper on a roof. One of my men engages, while the rest stays far behind in the darkness of the night. The one engaging locates the sniper and misses the first shot. Now the sniper shoots one of my other men - one of the leftbehinds. He can't know they are there. If he knew, the combat mode would have started. I have seen this on many occasions when you climb to a roof f.e. The enemy starts round-mode on hearing, so there is absolutely no way he knew where the rest of my team could be - really no way, coz hes the only one left outside (Alma H/14, but i have seen this behaviour in other locations throughout Arulco)!
Strong snipers - fine with me. But plz something more "legit".

PS: One more thing...
Maby it would be a good *option* to restrict Bobby Ray to ammo and similar stuff. Takes somehow the fun out of the game to have all the rifles at your disposal, while having enuff mortar shells puts it back in.

[Spectre]

Oh, and one more thing:
Maby this feature allready exists ...but if so, it hasn't been documented.
The chance to get the initiative should depend not only on level and attributes, the weapon held in hand should also have an influence.
For example: Level 4 with a submachine gun in hand beats lvl 6 with a Barrett. This puts "role" into the weapon classes.

[Realist]

The chance to get the initiative should depend not only on level and attributes, the weapon held in hand should also have an influence.
For example: Level 4 with a submachine gun in hand beats lvl 6 with a Barrett. This puts "role" into the weapon classes.

But in this case the player mustn't be allowed to switch the weapon in-hand. Otherwise he just gets initiative (or interrupt - not completely sure what you mean here) and puts Barrett in the hand. Since that doesn't cost you any AP's it wouldn't make any sense - in my opinion.

[Gorro der Grüne]

But in this case the play mustn't be allowed to switch the weapon in-hand. Otherwise he just gets initiative (or interrupt - not completely sure what you mean here) and puts Barrett in the hand. Since that doesn't cost you any AP's it wouldn't make any sense - in my opinion.

So let it cost AP. I personaly say it costs a lot of AP to put down SMG and ready a sniper rifle
Which you should carry and handle a little bit more careful than a SMG or an assault rifle.

(btw I got my sniper's papers in the army)

[Spectre]

But in this case the play mustn't be allowed to switch the weapon in-hand. Otherwise he just gets initiative (or interrupt - not completely sure what you mean here) and puts Barrett in the hand. Since that doesn't cost you any AP's it wouldn't make any sense - in my opinion.

Yea ...when you are "on initiative", switching the weapon must count as move.
Would have been soooooo nice to think, before you've entered this damn building with a funky PRG7 in hand instead of a pistol and a grenade...

PS: The choice of weapons narrows down later in the game ...allmost to an absurd level. Rocket rifle and HK21. This also means: no more sniperz, baby.
Maby some squad definitions would be a nice thing to have instead of seeing them drop from exhaustion after a workout with mortar and machine gun.

[-=[MAD]=-]

Ah, I didnt understand point 57 again
The weapons wight more when they are carried in the hands?

@Spectre
I am sorry, but Kaiden sayd that balancing the weapons now would be much too early.
But I also think, that all weapons with pistol ammo (.45 like the Thompson or UMP, 9x19mm like the MP5) should have the ability to have a sound supressor.

But I really disagree with the last point you sad. Why a SMG should be more aggressive than a sniper gun? At last the merc can carry a SMG first and change to his second weapon (the sniper gun) when he get the initiative

[zu deutsch zum letzten satz: Selbst wenn die Idee umgesetzt wird, dann würde ich doch immer noch meinen söldner vor rundenende die MP in die hand geben, und wenn ich dann die unterbrechung bekommen hab, zum SSG wechseln. Würde also keinen unterschied machen
und ja ich weiss, das es im englischen anders steht, aber wie gesagt kann ich kaum englisch sprechen/schreiben ]

gruss, -=[MAD]=-

[Gorro der Grüne]

@ MAD

Wir haben schon darauf hingewiesen, daß

a) das Wechseln APs kosten muß

b) nicht erlaubt sein darf (bei Unterbrechung)

oder

c) als Zug gewertet werden muß


Wobei ich eindeutig für a) bin.

Das im Rucksack kramen sollte immer APs kosten.

[Spectre]

=-'][zu deutsch zum letzten satz: Selbst wenn die Idee umgesetzt wird, dann würde ich doch immer noch meinen söldner vor rundenende die MP in die hand geben, und wenn ich dann die unterbrechung bekommen hab, zum SSG wechseln. Würde also keinen unterschied machen
und ja ich weiss, das es im englischen anders steht, aber wie gesagt kann ich kaum englisch sprechen/schreiben ]

Nope, you wouldn't. As soon as you switch, the break is over and the enemy gets the initiative again. Or do you think, he just waits there in mindless agony for hes doom to come, while you open your backpack and grab a nuke? This is allmost british humor...

Merc: Damn, what a selection. Hey you - what would you prefer? The red grenade, or the blue one?
Enemy: Oh, me personally i like black ...don't you have anything in black?
Merc: No dude, i am so sorry, but maby i can catch your interrest with this brandnew LAW... ? You know - double the boom for the same price. Besides, it isn't good to choose black. Do you feel depressed?
Enemy: NO!
Merc: Really?
Enemy: Well, yea ...you know, the war isn't going so well for our side. Your team ...ah, damit.
Merc: Ever tried ZEN?
Enemy: What?
Merc: Zen meditation. Helped me a lot! Come, let's discuss this over a beer
Enemy: Allright, let's go. I think Chez Santos is still open.

[Lokadamus]

Oh, and one more thing:
Maby this feature allready exists ...but if so, it hasn't been documented.
The chance to get the initiative should depend not only on level and attributes, the weapon held in hand should also have an influence.
For example: Level 4 with a submachine gun in hand beats lvl 6 with a Barrett. This puts "role" into the weapon classes.

mmm...

Crap, why should a Soldier with a Barrett handicapped? before you do this, you should think about buildings and situations. A Barrett costs many AP in original. A better Soldier know, how he can use his weapon and he will get just one bad shot ... switching weapons should costs APs, that will be ok ...

[smilingassassin]

switching weapons cost AP? that would spoil quite some aspect of the game for me

why having tons of weapons if i have to stick wiht one (AP-wise) ? I can do that in an FPS, but this is ja2 here...

also, readying a heavy weapon after switching from an SMG DOES cost you drawpoints so that is taken care of (thing of the drawpoints of a barrett for instance)

[Realist]

Don't wanna interrupt any discussion, but lemme come up with some code for Kaiden.

For merging items I think of an array of type of a struct that contains information about the two items, which item(s) you'll keep, what item and also the number of items you'll recieve. That array could get its own XML file like the other arrays in items.cpp.

Not exactly what I mentioned above, but it gets the job done:

Code: Alles auswählen

// Tactical\Items.cpp, somewhere near to the items table:

typedef enum
{
	KEEP_FIRST_ITEM,
	KEEP_SECOND_ITEM,
	KEEP_BOTH_ITEMS,	// listed here, although I've no idea what this might good for
} EXTENDED_MERGETYPE;

// NOTE: see BOOLEAN AttachObject(...) -function

UINT16 ExtendedMerge[][5] =
{
	// just some crazy example of items I've used before - don't be surprised if it doesn't make too much sense
	// 1st item		2nd item	result item			# of results	which one to keep
	{ COMBAT_KNIFE,	TSHIRT,		TSHIRT_DEIDRANNA,	4,				KEEP_FIRST_ITEM },
	{ 0,			0,			0,					0,				0 },
};

Code: Alles auswählen

// Tactical\Items.cpp, at the beginning of AttachObject-function

	UINT8 ubLoop = 0;
	UINT8 i;
	
	// loop through extended merge array
	while ( ExtendedMerge[ ubLoop ][ 0 ] != 0 )
	{
		if( (pTargetObj->usItem == ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][0] && pAttachment->usItem == ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][1])
			|| (pTargetObj->usItem == ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][1] && pAttachment->usItem == ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][0]) )
		{
			// items found for extended merge...

			// switch items if necessary
			// the item you wanna keep has to be the attachment
			if ( (ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][4] == KEEP_FIRST_ITEM && pAttachment->usItem != ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][0])
				|| (ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][4] == KEEP_SECOND_ITEM && pAttachment->usItem != ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][1]) )
			{
				// switch 'em
				OBJECTTYPE *pTmp;
				
				pTmp = pTargetObj;
				pTargetObj = pAttachment;				
				pAttachment = pTmp;				
			}


			// set merge result item and amount
			pTargetObj->usItem = ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][2];
			pTargetObj->ubNumberOfObjects = (UINT8) ExtendedMerge[ubLoop][3];

			
			for (i = 0; i < pTargetObj->ubNumberOfObjects; i++)
			{
				// set some status values
				pTargetObj->bStatus[i] = pAttachment->bStatus[0];
			}

			// quit to keep attachment item
			return FALSE;
		}

		ubLoop++;
	}

[Spectre]

switching weapons cost AP? that would spoil quite some aspect of the game for me

My only point was: you should lose the initiative, if it is an initiative-move and you switch the weapon. First contact, or interrupt. The rest should stay as it is now (in my opinion). No AP costs.
This gives a role to every weapon. The smaller, the better the initiative bonus (who shoots first). You dont go and do combat with a Barrett ...you simply don't!

[Gorro der Grüne]

Sorry, it was me Lokagrumulus (aka Lokadamus) being for APs.

I say skip the drawcosts and bring in APs for any item producing. They should depend on:

how big
how heavey
where the item was stored (grenade from belt is faster produced as from rucksack)



Anmerkung (für die, die es nicht wissen): to produce bedeutet hervorholen nicht produzieren.

[Kaiden]

I made a list of some details i've noticed while playing ...just my personal point of view:


* The UMP is an absolutely pointless weapon.
* Imho the AK-103 comes in too soon.
* Wight problems.
* Money problems.

Can all be changed through the XML or INI file (And more will be added later for almost complete control)

* Item problems.
Similar to the last point - no clue what would make it work better. While it is just boring to sell all the armor and Nightvision goggles things like ceramic plates, LAWs and mortar shells come in quite handy. I wouldn't miss them anymore. Brings dynamic to the game when you can bombshell the hell out of your enemy.
There is more incomming than i can sell to the local dealers so i am forced to dump the stuff via ALT. Besides - moving all the weapons to Toni isn't really an option. Its a pain in the ass. There is also a crossover to the money problem - thank God you don't have to, since you drown in money (at least if you are not one of the "Trevor and Magic" faction).

Same as above

Maby if you could donnate the stuff to the militia...

Already under discussion a few weeks ago over at bear's pit in the Feature Request thread.

* Rooftop party.
Nice feature, having enemies on the roof now. But they seem to develop a strange, yet allmost pervert obsession with roofs.
I cleared Alma Prison with one soldier on the roof. Shoot one enemy, the next comes climbing. Similar scenario in some of the missile sites. One small roof, 10 soldiers up there. One mustardgas mortar grenade and hasta la vista baby to halve the sector force. You can even blindfire, they are allways up there.
Imho some reballancing would be cool.

It is obsessive in some places, especially if you go on the roof, they will come up and find you. It has already been toned down, but ask yourself this, isn't the rooftop a good place to shoot from in alot of cases? The AI thinks so too. When we begin thinking of balance, this will be on the list.

* Strange behaviour of sniperz.
There is a sniper on a roof. One of my men engages, while the rest stays far behind in the darkness of the night. The one engaging locates the sniper and misses the first shot. Now the sniper shoots one of my other men - one of the leftbehinds. He can't know they are there. If he knew, the combat mode would have started. I have seen this on many occasions when you climb to a roof f.e. The enemy starts round-mode on hearing, so there is absolutely no way he knew where the rest of my team could be - really no way, coz hes the only one left outside (Alma H/14, but i have seen this behaviour in other locations throughout Arulco)!
Strong snipers - fine with me. But plz something more "legit".

Sniper code needs alot of work. Do German savegames work with english version? If so I could use the savegames to find out what the enemy is thinking when they do things like this.

PS: One more thing...
Maby it would be a good *option* to restrict Bobby Ray to ammo and similar stuff. Takes somehow the fun out of the game to have all the rifles at your disposal, while having enuff mortar shells puts it back in.

Completely configurable in the XML files.

Oh, and one more thing:
Maby this feature allready exists ...but if so, it hasn't been documented.
The chance to get the initiative should depend not only on level and attributes, the weapon held in hand should also have an influence.
For example: Level 4 with a submachine gun in hand beats lvl 6 with a Barrett. This puts "role" into the weapon classes.

This is an excellent Idea.

But in this case the player mustn't be allowed to switch the weapon in-hand. Otherwise he just gets initiative (or interrupt - not completely sure what you mean here) and puts Barrett in the hand. Since that doesn't cost you any AP's it wouldn't make any sense - in my opinion.

Yet...

=-']Ah, I didnt understand point 57 again
The weapons wight more when they are carried in the hands?

Yes.

=-']
@Spectre
I am sorry, but Kaiden sayd that balancing the weapons now would be much too early.
But I also think, that all weapons with pistol ammo (.45 like the Thompson or UMP, 9x19mm like the MP5) should have the ability to have a sound supressor.

I will explain the reason for this. Most of it can be changed in the XML files. We understand that this is mostly for Modders, while the files are all in plain text, they can still be difficult for the average player to modify without breaking the game.

However, in the "Official" (We're done with it completely) release, we will look to balance all the weapons and Items that are in the Default version.


@Realist, I think that would work well with Mugsy's Idea of adding "Merge Types"

[Spectre]

Yea, the roof is a good place to shoot from, but its one of the whorst places to spend your night. The AI should also take into consideration, that i know they are there (so predictable) - and so this becomes the whorst place to shoot from. Shelling the roofs, thats how i start an attack since 1.13.
Plus: they are there before they know of an attack. You can just sneak in and then you'll find 9-10 of'em on a small roof. Take a look at SAM-site central, its amazing. Most the time the enemy just celebrates a party on a dark roof. Makes them look kinda stupid.

It's also a ballancing problem. As long as you don't really know how to deal with them, they are as good as invincible up on that roof. But as soon as you know the tricks, it becomes a question of mustard-gas. You can kill'em all with no real danger to your men.
Both situations are not really cool.

[smilingassassin]

@spectre

this has also to do with enemy placement in vanilla ja2 maps

maps would have to be adjusted for 1.13 AI to work properly

(enemy placement and behaviour)

[Lokadamus]

My only point was: you should lose the initiative, if it is an initiative-move and you switch the weapon. First contact, or interrupt. The rest should stay as it is now (in my opinion). No AP costs.
This gives a role to every weapon. The smaller, the better the initiative bonus (who shoots first). You dont go and do combat with a Barrett ...you simply don't!

mmm...

You have a Weapon in Hand, you and the enemy must have a shooting position. You cant say, who knows his weapon better. you have a problem with wigth? i've seen in my little time by Bundeswehr (= Army) some peoples, witch take MG3 as others G3. i don't think, that a MG3 is easy to carry 10km, but some have no problems to do so ... and what about the situation from snipers? they will lose their initiative, because you stumple in their line?

[Spectre]

Well, ehm ...commando versions arn't just called 'Commando' becouse it sounds cool. There must be something to it, or all the ultraelite GSG9&Co guys wouldn't carry anything else than machine guns. But surprise - they don't. There's clearly a difference between field war and commando ops. Ever tried to swing around your MG3? You are shot twice, before you manage to aim with that bulky thing. You may find yourself even shot then times, if you try this stunt with a Barrett.


@all
There are some things i found kinda disturbing around weapon addons. Does a VAL silent need a flash suppressor?! Please ...enlighten me.

[Spectre]

@spectre

this has also to do with enemy placement in vanilla ja2 maps

maps would have to be adjusted for 1.13 AI to work properly

(enemy placement and behaviour)

Thank you
Wow man, now this sounds like work. All the mods...

[smilingassassin]

for me, the difference between commando guns and full size assault rifles is reflected in different ways in ja2:

lower AP usage
lower Draw cost
higher rate of fire (before 1.13, this meant longer Burst)

lower range
lower damage

different attachments

so i think there are enough differences. the problem lies elsewhere: turn-based combat system has to decide who gets the turn
it uses different variables to decide this:
experience level
sight
position
knowledge about enemy

maybe other factors as well

it will ALWAYS seem to us not logical how the game decides about turns and interrupts because we don`t live by AP`s or in turnbased mode. if one guy reacts very slowly with his pistol, the other one with the machine gun might catch him

so i doubt whether we`d see much advantage by a system like that


talking of maps: we`ll have to wait and see what kaiden, muggsy and snap code in terms of tilesets and prof.dat and then we can see how to adjust maps to the different AI in 1.13

[-=[MAD]=-]

I am also thinking that the weapons not any difference in getting the initiative is.

@paying APs to produce (thank u Gorro ) an item
In my opinion thre was a Mod where this feature was build in, but I don't know the name of this mod at this moment
But I remember that this didnt make fun to me. Just think on producing the first-aid-kit [sprich so würde das verbinden ewig viel kosten, weil noch das Erste-Hilfe-Päckchen in die Hand genommen werden muss]

@all
There are some things i found kinda disturbing around weapon addons. Does a VAL silent need a flash suppressor?! Please ...enlighten me.

with a sound suppressor is a Val even more silently
smilingassassin uses this feature in Ja2 Vengeance und Ja2 Vengeance NK before

greets, -=[MAD]=-

[Spectre]

Yea, a sound suppressor might do the trick, but the thing you can attach to the Val in 1.13 is a flashsuppressor. Covers the muzzleflash. But since the silencer counts also as flashsuppressor and the Val has a built in silencer ...so, what's the point?


The initiative thing:
I am strictly against additional AP costs for whatever. You allready need more AP to raise a Barrett, than a MP5. I did simply say, this should also be reflected when it comes down to initiative.
For example: you need, say 8 AP to raise a Barrett and 3 for the MP5. So you get +5 bonus to "reaction" while holding the MP5 against an enemy holding a Barrett.

[Lokadamus]

The initiative thing:
I am strictly against additional AP costs for whatever. You allready need more AP to raise a Barrett, than a MP5. I did simply say, this should also be reflected when it comes down to initiative.
For example: you need, say 8 AP to raise a Barrett and 3 for the MP5. So you get +5 bonus to "reaction" while holding the MP5 against an enemy holding a Barrett.

mmm...

Sorry, i dont understand, what you want. Initiave is a surprise, so everbody have a chance to surprise somebody. When you are surprised, you cant handle fast enough, indifferently which weapon you use ...

[Gorro der Grüne]

I'm for additional APs for producing anything
whenYou are in round or better combatmode.

You have your turn. Anything you do must cost APs. If the gamer decides to waste his APs with switching weapons and glancing whether he could hit or not, thrice then inspecting his googeles and touching a grenade it's his decission and his (wo)man maybe will be shot.

That's reality in your 'moment of action' you have to act, you can't view your rucksack and perfom/practise some aiming with any weapon you've got and then shoot.

Your enemy will shoot first ("sorry I had no rucksack and only one weapon").

And the albhorns will sound the mourne of the great Spectre (aka progrestinator)


At least You could agree to 'user's choice' via the *.ini


Edith: With such a system I would like mercs/soldiers to autochange googles/gasmask when trapped in gas - and loose their next turn.

[KillerFaultier]

maybe i have a solution/enhancement for the "invisible enemy sniper shoots mercs out of sight range through spotter" problem.

the thing is, as i understand it at the moment, that as soon as one enemy spots one of your mercs, every other enemy can see his position too and snipe him if he is equipped with a sniper weapon and within effective range.

too make it more realistic and playable, we could change the whole thing to the following: if one enemy spots one of your mercs, he has to use his walkie talkie in order to tell the mercs position to the other soldiers. as long as he doesnt do that, no other enemy can know your position. using the walkie talkie will cost plenty of AP (10 - 15 or so) and if you manage to kill the enemy silently before he can use his talkie, your position will not be revealed.
also, if you kill the spotter and move your revealed merc, the position will become hidden again or the enemy sniper can try to make a blind shot.

this would make much more sense as the mercs communicate via headset whilst the regular enemy soldiers only have walkie talkies.

another thing to make the sniper/tunnel vision feature more useful and realistic, would be to incorporate a "scanning/surveillance mode" feature for snipers in which a soldier/merc equipped with a weapon with sniper scope can activate this mode (through an additional button in a extended/remade user interface in 800x600 maybe) an then he uses his scope to permanently scan a certain area horizontally in viewing direction with an angle of 30-45 degrees (or 3 tiles) for example, in which he has an extended viewing range. in this view mode, the sniper spots any enemy within his field of view more easily since he is on active lookout for it, but he gets blind for anything else outside his field of view. this could add an additional initiative bonus for the sniper but also a massive malus for reacting to anything else.

the sniper stays in this mode as long as it is not deactivated but looses the ability to move (or needs 2x to 3x the AP for moving). if the field of view has to be adjusted, the sniper must be turned around on the spot like normal but also costing more AP.

this would make things more balanced and adding more tactical finesse to the whole sniper role. as i remember, this has been done quite similar in the NightOps mod.

one more thing that would be quite nice: if there was the possibility, to add one (or two) additional height-level to the regular grund (not only houseroofs) which can be climbed (high rocks or even trees, imagine trenches!) or reached without climbing through normal walking. i know this would require to redo the maps and tilesets completely, but imagine the possibilities for mappers! and instead of adding only additional underground levels, one additional upper level (roofs) would be great. then there would be the possibility to make real watchtowers at last!


furthermore i find the initiative and/ or AP bonus/malus for shorter, lighter commando weapons/longer,heavier assault and sniper wepons a good idea.

since in reality, a barret is so heavy and bulky that no one can shoot this thing in any other position than proned and with careful aim. alone to swing this thing around when reacting to a thread from a different direction would be so difficult that such a weapon is near to useless in close quarters and short range combat. any sniper weapon is clearly a long range weapon whilst assault rifles are more mid to short range weapons and SMG are clearly close combat weapons. also, any scoped long weapon is mostly useless for quick reaction shots at low ranges whilst any non-scoped weapon with more simple targeting devices is much more suited for quick reaction target acquisition. in an urban close combat or in-house situation, the man with the long rifle will almost always loose to the one with the light and short weapon because latter just has the better reaction and initiative, especially around corners and in tight hallways! but such a feature would require to be very carefully balanced. on the other hand, the existing draw cost penaltys reflects that on a basic level so it is more or less a question of personal preference. maybe good as an additional option in higher difficulty levels?